Natl. History Day (Shaun Lawton interviewed by Lindy Trout)

National History Day Interview Questions

The following is a transcript of Lindy Trout conducting an interview with the poet Shaun Lawton. This interview occurred in January of 2014. The poet's replies are in italics. 

1. Who is Allen Ginsberg to the writing community?

In a nutshell, he is one of the leading poets of the Beat Generation who's poem HOWL was judged to be not obscene, thus helping to keep the way paved toward alternative culture and preserving Freedom of Speech.

2. The theme of our project is Rights and Responsibilities in censorship during the Beat Generation. Allen Ginsberg's poem Howl references illegal drugs and is sexually explicit, what was the responsibility of Ginsberg to censor Howl?

None, zero, zilch.  His responsibility, which he fulfilled admirably in my opinion, was to avoid censoring it.

3. As a writer, what is your responsibility to censor your own work?

My responsibility in today's day and age, is to refrain from being exploitative in the area of rape. I think most everything else is pretty much fair game. 

4. In 1957 City Lights Publisher Lawrence Ferlinghetti was arrested for Publishing the book Howl and Other Poems because its content was thought to be obscene. Did the government have the right to censor Howl?

No. 

5. Who's ultimate responsibility is it to censor literature?

It begins with the author, and ends with their editor.   Therefore, the ultimate responsibility lies with the editor. 

6. Allen Ginsberg was truly revolutionary in his time? What lasting influence does the beat generation have on the literary world?

Yes, he was truly revolutionary for his time, on a lot of levels; personally, sexually, and spiritually.  I think the beat generation's lasting influence can be summed up in one word, "alternative."  Their work questioned everything that we came to accept about a normal society:  from how literature itself is written and perceived, on through religious, sexual, and personal freedom.  Their collective influence, I think, was strong enough to have become permanent.  The Beats really did change the world for the better.

7.What influence has the beat generation had on you personally?

A tremendous influence.  Writers and poets such as Lawrence Ferlinghetti, William S. Burroughs, Gregory Corso, Allen Ginsberg, and Gary Snyder have all woven their effect on me throughout my formative years studying poetry in college. 

8. Why did you write a response to Allen Ginsberg's poem Capitol Air?

I was struck by the idea suddenly one day, that if Ginsberg were still around, what would he think?  While reading through his collection PLUTONIUM ODE: AND OTHER POEMS 1977-1980, I discovered this poem of his which was really intended as a protest song (the sheet music on how to play it on guitar are included in the book), and reading it I was struck by how it was written from the perspective of one man (Ginsberg) railing against the corruption he sees taking root in our government.  I decided to change the perspective from "I" to "we", twisting the original's viewpoint around to the point of view of we, the people today.  Instead of raging against the things Allen protested in the original, we not only appear to have accepted it in my version, but I took it one step further, and wrote it from the perspective of the conservative, fundamental rightwing point of view.  My version echoes each line of Ginsberg's original, resulting in a parody of sorts intended to reflect upon how little we've come during the intervening years since Allen wrote his version. 

9. What influence do you think your poem had of the literary world? What kind of responses did it get?

My poem is featured on my free blog Triggerdreams, and no one responded.   However, I was lucky enough to be invited to perform my spoken word poetry at LitPunk II, an alternative to "LitQuake" put on in the San Francisco Bay area by cyberpunk rocker and author John Shirley.  The place was packed and my reading of Capitol Airs was met with fervent applause.  I have it uploaded to my YouTube channel for posterity. 

10. Howl and Other Poems is indecent, but it was ruled not obscene, it was saved by its “redeeming social importance”. Should indecent material be allowed to be sold to the general public?

Yes, of course it should.  That is the hallmark of our country.  We have freedom of speech here. If the material is too graphically explicit for younger persons, I think it's okay to label it as such and be sold as 18+ or whatever, because we also have a responsibility to properly guide the developing minds of our children. 

11. What is the redeeming social importance of Howl?

Principally that it shows by example what taboos  from the mid-20th century warranted controversy here in our country, and yet withstood judgment as not being obscene. It remains as a stark reminder today, that controversial issues considered taboo by the mainstream have been hard fought for and won already.   Besides that, it has survived the test of time and may be read today for the expressive beauty of its poetry alone. 

12. Is offensive content necessary to poetry? Is Censorship necessary to poetry?

Absolutely not.   Although some good editing might improve almost any poem. 

13. Some major censorship cases include Roth v. United States (1957), Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964), Memoirs v. Massachusetts (1966), Kois v. Wisconsin (1972), and Miller v. California (1973). Why were obscenity cases common in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s?

It was a far more innocent era, back then; but remember, our country is largely based on Puritanism.   So back in the 50s, the puritanical aspect was far more paramount, then.

14. The Beatniks became popular during the early stages of the Cold War when foreign powers and McCarthyism kept people in fear. Was Beat poetry a social statement specific to that time period or was it intended for all generations?

Although it certainly was specific to that time period, I think most of the beat writers were artistic and prescient enough to inform their work with a degree of timelessness, so that it might be remembered far into the future.    Many of the better beat writers were masters of their craft.  Viewed in this light, I think it's safe to say that the best ones intended their work to inform all generations to come, and from where I sit, it appears they are still influencing our current generation of more serious writers.   

This Bridge of Sorrows

I woke up this morning after a twelve hour sleep,
during which I experienced a bit of dreaming.
Somehow I found myself in the company
of very young twenty year olds. We were at a party.
They accepted me as being one of them,
despite my having been twice their age.
An old friend showed up, now a famous poet.

He looked younger too.
He leaned in and planted a firm kiss on my mouth.
Although somewhat taken aback, I accepted the kiss.
I could feel the coarseness of his stubble.
The rough maleness of it.
It was very casual, as if we were just saying
"Hello" to each other.

Granted, it had been many years since we last
hung out together.
Today I am worried about him and his wife.
We all know he is lingering by the clearing.
The clearing at the end of the road.
This has gotten me thinking about spirit.
What is spirit, if not the commonality of all things?

Could the great spirit have projected this image
of my friend into my dream?
There being essentially zero difference
between the two?
Is it possible my dream was that spirit bidding
us farewell for me?

Even while he may be slipping from his mortal shell,
unaware himself, God Itself
may have been sending me a message.
I hope and pray that my dear friend has not passed away yet.
Maybe this image in my dream was meant as a reminder.
A reminder that after all, we don't have that much time left.

A tap on the shoulder in my sleep,
to get myself to Boston this spring.
What is God but a word we invented
to signify what we don't understand?

About this existence, this magnetic planet,
this solar storm in which we live.
These great, nested spheres of unimaginable
energy animating us all.
Why are we all so divided in our beliefs
to the point of constant warring?
Because we survivors must live here together.

It must be that we only use a fraction
of our heart's muscle toward thinking.
Could it be that we have over-analyzed
every little thing into fruitlessness?

Allow me to provide just one example
in this endless forest of night.
It has been stated that to forgive is divine,
but what is forgiveness, then?
What is it to forgive, if not to merely pardon
someone for even the smallest thing?

In other words, the next time someone
whose beliefs are different than yours,
why not try an experiment, you know,
just for shits and giggles.
If they think something differently
than you, why not pardon them and listen.

Is there any such thing as an authority
on this great open wide green Earth?
If you just pardon someone's different
belief system, you have forgiven them.

To forgive does not necessarily mean that
the case in which it's done must be extreme.
If you are an atheist and believe in science,
does that mean you cannot believe in spirit?

If you're religious and believe in creationism,
does that mean you live in a dream world?
Do the laws of physics as we have come
to understand them even mean a thing?

This is why I have chosen to live
my life on middle ground.
It's a firm decision to establish
one's home on this bridge.

Constant Connection

Dream To Have

What I write now will remain here in stasis unless elementary forces pretty much beyond our control and ability to fully comprehend stagger about and dominate us on a stage so tremendous we are only now beginning to dimly perceive our place in this ongoing sector of the developing universe.

In fact one of the reasons for this dream to have been provoked in the first place has been to better our observation of the potential nature of our world surrounding us.

Time, when viewed as all that we really have, becomes a tad more tangible as we imagine it slipping through our fingertips every day.

The dream I am going to have will feel like an electric day in the late fall of our youth.

The leaves will be very detailed and feel so crisp in their simulated presentation.

I recall this appearance as having been drawn from my own memory.

That is because my visual cortex must render the images I see into pixels if they are to be translated from a camera which captured them.

This exchange of having released the captured image for our selves to see is really a spectacular example of spirit depiction.

I will dream that outdoors, where we are all relegated, I have decided to knock on the front entrance of a random principality.

The blue eye scans me and the gateway unlocks with a click.

I reach over and open the hatch and that's how easy it is to get back inside.

After dreaming that I have boiled some water and allowed a bag of tea to steep for four minutes I consider that any vision after this must be wasted.

Adventures In Cyber-Land

 by Shaun Lawton

"All I want for Xmas is a real PC, a real PC, a real PC, all I want for my birthday is a laptop not a Mac, a laptop not a Mac, please do not get me a Maaaac" is what I typed into the Google search field, and tapped enter. 

“Did you mean: All I want for Xmas is a real PC, a real PC, a real PC, all I want for my birthday is a laptop not a Mac, a laptop not a Mac, please do not get me a Maniac?"  

I did not click on that.  Instead, I  retyped the answer into the search field, and hit enter. 

It responds with the first of 2,570,000 results in .93 seconds. “U2’s new album might be on your iOS devices right now  :




Your search - May I ask you why your first reply to my question "No, sorry for the digital glitch there, I - did not match any documents. Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
Try fewer keywords.
Try similar keywords.
Don’t try any keywords.
Try more keywords.

• Now I was getting somewhere. When I tried more general keywords, I got Let’s Play Pokemon Ruby and Die Honorably, Honorably Die, and a site pimping network polymer products.  So I entered “Let’s Play Pokemon Ruby and Die Honorably, Honorably Die, and a site pimping network polymer products.” into the search field. And whaddaya know. Nowhere on the front loaded page of the first 124 results matched the prior page.  I got Full text of “NEW” - Internet Archive, | WatchMojo.com, and Click here to download - Bryn Mawr Computer Science. Three more down it said “The 0 TO 1 AND 2 OF 3 - word-clustering. I clicked on it. The first forty seven lines read:     

the  0
to 1
and 2
of 3
in 4
for 5
is 6
on 7
said 8
with 9
at 10
was 11
be 12
it 13
are 14
that 15
from 16
by 17
as 18
not 19
will 20
has 21
or 22
this 23
an 24
you 25
who 26
nt 27
but 28
they 29
their 30
about 31
have 32
he 33
were 34
had 35
can 36
we 37
been 38
would 39
up 40
more 41
your 42
when 43
which 44
his 45
its 13. That’s strange. The next fifty-four lines read:  
also 46
all 47
than 48
people 49
out 50
time 51
after 52
1st 53
year 54
our 55
other 56
just 57
into 58
what 59
some 60
new 61
do 62
if 63
them 64
over 65
last 66
could 67
there 68
like 69
no 70
get 71
did 72
because 73
so 74
may 75
says 76
any 77
only 78
home 79
she 80
now 81
most 82
through 83
my 84
before 85
where 86
back 87
her 88
how 89
make 90
should 91
way 92
going 93
good 94
off 95
those 96
re 97
state 98
game 99

being 12. What was going on here. What sort of order where these words listed in? The next line, the word “against”, was number 100. On the 101st line, no less. I scanned down the column of numbered words and saw that the sequence of numerals continuing by one did not get interrupted until after 139, with the number 93.  First there were forty-seven lines before 13 being introduced, then fifty-four lines before twelve, now thirty-nine lines and we get ninety-three.  I began reading the novel Ninety-Three by Victor Hugo recently. What, exactly, was going on here? 

THE LOOM

Humans dwell encapsulated 

within cellular insulations. 

Cilia measure vibrations inside 

vessels which circulate blood 
throughout central nervous systems. 

Optic fibers translate 

data reflected through eyes into  

brains which process these signals into 

relatively three-dimensional images. 

This occurs on a planet revolving 

about a sun hosting this activity 

en masse by a process which involves 

the necessary transorbital positioning of 

repeatedly placing these beings in between 

their planet's and its star's geomagnetic cores. 

When they are in between these 

magnets (a position  labelled "day") 

there manifests a sufficient amount 

of energy by which they may achieve 

their daily tasks toward survival

and the continuation of their race. 

While  outside these magnets 

(the intermediary position known as 

"night") the majority  manage 

to rest and recharge their batteries.

If information overload has ever occurred 

in the history of this sentient species, 

it may best be personified by what occurs 

online all over their world wide web today: 

The disparity of data and how it 

relates directly and indirectly to 

humanity eventually collects 

into extreme disproportion. 

These incoming waves of daily 

tidings serve as fast-moving 

ticker-tapes of windows 

through which individuals 

may glimpse single frames 

of their living skin.

Scales of the ourobouros 

they are each in the process 

of weaving together on their 

planet looming in outer space.


by Shaun Lawton

ball tongue

 No wonder it's called
ball tongue it means
gagged and bound,
it's raging against the
situation 'down on my
knees' the singer finds
himself in  - -that he
cannot say anything.
By virtue of the situation
it's a lockdown
paradox--ball tongue.  

   WTF.